35. Lucy Park, Trust & Estates Lawyer on Owning Your Career

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Episode Transcript

[cue theme intro music]

Alisa Manjarrez: Rosa, this is a “get out there and make it happen” episode today. So I thought I would start us off with a little bit of Diana Ross. No, I’m not going to sing, but I see you dancing. This is her quote, You can’t just sit there and wait for people to give you that golden dream, you’ve got to get out there and make it happen for yourself.

And today we’re talking about making yourself visible in the workplace and really taking a proactive approach with your career. So, Rosa, what I’m curious about for you is, at what point did you feel like you were really in control of your career destiny?

Rosa Santos: Last week of September, 1996.

Alisa Manjarrez: Whoa.

Rosa Santos: I know, right? I don’t know exactly what day it was, but I know exactly it was the last week of September in 1996. 

Alisa Manjarrez: So it’s been awhile.

Rosa Santos: It’s been a while, but I do remember really clearly, because that was the week that I was coming back home from having graduated. 

[airplane flying sound effects][cue music]

I was in an airplane and I happened to be sitting next to the person who would become a huge sponsor of my career who happened to be the CHRO of a huge company that I really wanted to work for. So I took the chance, asked him a lot of questions, and I clearly, clearly remember that I was so nervous my hands were sweating and we were almost landing and I go, Should I ask him? Should I ask him for a job? And I did. I said, What would it take for me to actually work with you in your company? What do I need to do? I want a job with you. 

And he handed me over his cards, call this number and, I’ll make sure that you can schedule conversations with people in my company. So as soon as I got home I got on that phone and made it all happen. And that was the start of my career. And the one thing that I tell you, he was the one who opened up the possibility of what a career in this field would be for me and provided me with distinctions to be able to do so.

Alisa Manjarrez: That’s amazing.

Rosa Santos: Isn’t it? It’s vivid, it’s vivid. It was thanks to that moment and taking the courage to say, Before this plane lands, I am going to get a job.

 Alisa Manjarrez: I love that.

[music stops] 

Rosa Santos: Yeah, and that’s what we’re going to be talking about today is, how strategic can we be, right? And how we make sure that we don’t pass opportunities by in front of us if those opportunities are in line with our own strategy of driving our own careers.

[cue music]

Lucy Park: My name is Lucy Park. I am a mother of two, a wife, daughter, sister, friend, and I am a lawyer.  

 Alisa Manjarrez: We had the pleasure of speaking with Lucy park, who really broke the mold as a Korean woman in the United States by entering into the field of law. She specifically said she wanted to come on our podcast and share her lessons learned from the last, probably more than 10 years. One of the biggest things that we took away was this idea of being visible in your career and owning your choices.

[music stops] 

Lucy Park: I don’t know how much you two know about how law school and the pipeline to large law firms works, but pretty much you figure out where you’re going to go to have your career, or at least the beginning of your career, after your second year of law school. And assuming you get a second summer job, and they tell you that you’re hired at the end of the summer, you go into your third year and last year, knowing you have that job after graduation. So it’s a very straight line. 

So that’s what I did. And because there had been no lawyers in my family, before my brother, who graduated a year before me, the two of us really had no idea how that stuff worked, how that pipeline worked, how law firms worked, how, I mean, we just knew from LA law, from watching TV. 

So when I got to the law firm, all I knew was I just needed not to get fired. That was my one goal was not to get fired every single day.

 Rosa Santos: One of the things, Alisa, that I always think that it’s important, and I think sometimes we forget, and I tell you, at that moment when I met this executive I knew I wanted to have a career in HR. I didn’t know how to go about it other than just get my first job, right? And it was through obviously experience and getting to know folks who mentored and sponsored me that I realized that my career was, and is my business. And as such, I needed to have a very specific strategy in order to achieve my goals. It is a business and as such, you need to strategize around it and sometimes you have to be cold hearted around it. You know, having to move companies, having to change jobs, having to go back to school, having to broaden your network, whatever those actions may be. And one of them, one of them that Lucy talks about is how you become more visible and you know your worth, that’s part of enabling your overall strategy, especially as a multicultural woman. 

Lucy Park: The discovery was more realizing there were things I needed to do differently, skills I needed to develop that were not what I had already in my toolkit.

And so that discovery, I think, is kind of like enlightenment, because the light bulb goes off and you go, Oh, that’s the secret. It’s not really a secret. It was just a secret to me. And so part of my aim, and frankly why I wanted to do this podcast with you, is I want younger people not to go through what I did.

I don’t want them to waste 10 years not knowing how things work just because they never heard it before. I want them to know going into a career that it’s not about hard work, and it’s not about working the most, it’s about who you know, who your sponsor is, being in the right place at the right time and courting the right people who are going to be in your corner.

Alisa Manjarrez: Rosa, I love how in every episode you talk about being cold-hearted, whether it’s about your friends, your job, but ultimately it really is about advocating for yourself. And I like that language because so often I can be so nice that I’m not visible and I’m not advocating for myself.

And I think that if you think about being cold hearted and negotiating for your worth and all of that, then it’s like, Oh, okay, well, I can play that game. 

Rosa Santos: First off, I am nice. I’m a nice person.

Alisa Manjarrez: You’re very sweet. We wouldn’t be friends if you weren’t.

Rosa Santos: I just want to get… But it is true what you’re saying, and in fact, there’s a lot of research out there around this notion of being warm or competent. Sometimes if we come or show up as really warm, that may have an impact on who’s seeing you as not being competent enough. On the other side of that continuum, if you show up as being too competent then you might show up as a bit arrogant about it or too entitled and that’s what I mean about being a little cold-hearted and I think that’s, for me, that’s so important to really draft your strategy in a way that when you’re talking about it all those emotions that sometimes come to the fault you can remove and put aside, and then you can have a much clearer conversation.

[cue music]

Alisa Manjarrez: One of the things that Lucy told us was her idea of being successful was working hard. She’s incredibly intelligent and she thought, I’m just going to go work for this law firm, put my head down and wait for things to happen. She describes her immigrant experience of being brought up to just work hard and that’s all you need to do. But one of the things that Lucy discovered was that there was so much more if she wanted to become a partner in her law firm.

[music stops]

Lucy Park: It took someone saying to me, you don’t have a career, you have a job, to realize, Oh, there’s a different way I’m supposed to be doing things. And I tell that story to a lot of junior associates, especially women, because I think that especially when you’re talking about lawyers who don’t have a family history of lawyers in the family, who don’t have that history of knowing what large law firms are like and any legal background, you don’t know what you’re supposed to do, and you don’t know what the path is.

And so you just sort of put your head down and try to work as hard as you can. And some of that is the immigrant mentality that people who immigrated to this country, like my parents and I did, put the American dream up on a pedestal and you say, well, if everybody works hard, they can get there.

Well now we all know that’s not true, but that’s the immigrant mentality. And so that’s how I was raised to believe if I work hard, I just put my head down, don’t complain, it’ll happen. What that “it” is nobody knows, but it will happen. And when I finally realized that that wasn’t enough, that you actually have to proactively do things and also changed the way I had been doing things, that’s when I actually started making decisions about my career

 Rosa Santos: Who can you find who can help you work smarter and not harder? Because it’s proven time and time again that the fact that you work smarter, I mean, sorry, harder, that doesn’t mean that people are going to see you and are going to all of a sudden think about you for the next promotion, you are going to have to make it happen for yourself.

Lucy Park: All I knew was I just needed to work hard. And to me that meant, you know, you put your head down and you work hard and you do what you’re told and somehow things will happen. I’m not… I wasn’t sure what would happen. I just knew things would happen.

Alisa Manjarrez: And for Lucy it was literally counter-cultural being brought up by her parents, her own culture, it’s all about humility, which is such an amazing gift to have, but there is a dark side of staying humble if you’re not actually talking about your achievements. 

 Lucy Park: I had to get past how I was raised in order to push out against my boundaries and push out against my comfort zone. 

There are certain things that my parents sort of drummed into my brothers and me as we were growing up. And one of them is you put your head down and work hard. Like that’s just what you do. And the other thing they really drummed in was that one should always be modest and humble. Now some of that you could say is stereotypically an Asian thing. Some of it you could say is my parents, because it is, the problem is that all of those things are directly in contradiction to what you have to do if you want to succeed. 

[cue music]

So the two main things that one should do, whether in a law firm or in business or anywhere is, outside my comfort zone. It’s asking for business and self promotion. You have to actually ask for business. People expect you to actually say it. Like it took me until a couple of years ago before I could really do it without feeling like I wanted to run from the room.

Self promotion, it’s the same thing. You know, we, I think as a culture, Korean people and then women, stereotypically, are told to be humble and modest, right? Not talk about yourself all the time, not throw yourself out there, not do all of those things that you’re supposed to do in business to get ahead. So recognition is the first part. The second part is actually doing it.

[music stops] 

I think that’s really hard for those of us who don’t come by those things naturally.

Alisa Manjarrez: I love the saying, it’s not bragging if it’s true. But I still think that it’s hard to talk about all the good things that you’re doing when you’re at work. You know, I love talking about myself, but it still doesn’t come naturally to say, Hey, Rosa, I’m doing an amazing job right now. 

So what about for you, like throughout the years of your career, what has it been like to talk about your achievements and share them at work?

Rosa Santos: I think this continues to be the hardest part of me. I obviously come from a culture where, you know, you’re taught to collectively own success and not individually, so that doesn’t come easy for me.

And in fact, when I get either promotion performance reviews, or feedback, it’s always very natural to me saying, yeah, but it’s my team. It’s not me, it’s the team. And it really continues to be a challenge for me to be able to do that. 

Alisa Manjarrez: Well, we’re taught there’s no, I in team. Like we get all these mixed messages saying you have to stay humble. And as a leader, you have to share your success. But then at the same time, no one’s going to know what you did if you don’t say it.

Rosa Santos: Exactly right. Exactly right. And I think one thing that helps me is really just talking about the achievement in a way that I can explain the impact that it’s had on somebody else, either because, you know, there’s something that I’ve done or I’ve let, or that has enabled either a business to continue to flourish or a person or a team or an organization to continue to flourish. So, for me, that’s a really nice way of reconciling, okay, I did that. And at the same time, I did and I had a positive impact on somebody else. That really helps me and makes me feel good. Rather than just saying, I, you know, I went to the moon by myself.

Alisa Manjarrez: I think that’s the best of both worlds, because you’re talking about what you did, but when you can talk about how it impacts others, it shows that you care and that you do have that group or others or teamwork mentality, because you’re able to share both sides of it.

But the way you’re sharing is very distinct from, we saved the children, right? It could be like I led a team and then we, you know, did this thing that impacted the world.

Rosa Santos: Yeah. Say it out loud, practice it and believe it, because it’s you, you did that. Nobody else did it, right? Own it. And I would say it’s not necessarily self-promotion for me, it’s that it’s about owning my worth and owning my successes.

And then I feel confident to just share it with others. Now, if you have that strategy at the top for your career, then you’re going to be smarter and then you’re going to use that as a way of enabling that overall strategy to move, to move forward to whatever you’re heading.

Alisa Manjarrez: I do think you get better with practice. And Lucy talks about a speech that she gave in front of thousands of people. And she said it was hard, and she still has a hard time when she does speaking engagements, but she’s gotten better. And so just as you are talking about practicing the preparation, practicing the strategy, practicing the doing is another essential piece of really making yourself seen.

Lucy Park: So years ago when I was a graduate student in psychology, I had to fly to New Mexico to give a speech based on my master’s thesis in front of this big conference, psychology conference, and it was thousands of people. And I was so stressed out.

I mean, I considered quitting just so that I didn’t have to do this. And my husband said to me, at the time it gets easier if you practice. The more you do it, the easier it gets. And I thought, He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. But he did, of course, know what he’s talking about. And over time, you know, you do it more often. It does get easier. And not only that, when you have success doing it, then it sort of encourages you to keep doing it. And so just by virtue of, you know, 20 years of working in this job, it’s gotten easier, but it’s not easy.

Rosa Santos: And I think that’s the point where we all feel really comfortable like, Oh, eyes are going to be on me. But it’s at that moment when you’re going to choose how to be visible. And in doing so, what is it that you want out being visible and showing up in a different way? And it might be just putting your hand to work on a project that maybe you know nothing about, but you’re going to push yourself to do that.

You have to make it happen. And, again, being visible and showing up differently and owning that stage is gonna be an enabler for your own strategy. 

Alisa Manjarrez: And if we think about our career as our personal business, you won’t get business if you don’t show up. Like it literally will not happen for you if you’re behind the scenes.

Lucy Park: I think it’s very important for them to be more visible, because if you’re not visible, then people can very easily pass you over for assignments. They can pass you over for important committee roles. They can pass you over when they want to take a client out to dinner and they want to bring a colleague along. Whatever it is, you need to be visible so that people think of you at your job. 

Rosa Santos: And if you think about it from a lens of a business, I talk.. It’s funny, I talk a lot about, how do you go about doing business development? If you think about any firm, right, that’s what they do. They do a lot of that. They meet with people, they have a product that they, you know, they have to share it. They have to talk about the advantages of that product and why they would want that product and not something else. And it’s all part of that business development. They go out on dinners and well, they used to go to dinners, I guess. But it, but it’s putting it out there, it’s doing business development.

So, when you’re thinking about your career, what business development are you doing around your career? Have we thought about it that way? What does need to happen when you do that? Because unless you do business development, you won’t be able to see what kinds of opportunities there might be out there. And who’s shopping for them as well. And who’s shopping for someone like you, right? 

It’s a little bit about this concept that Lucy talks about in terms of the market, thinking about it from a marketplace perspective, not feeling like you owe anybody, anything because you’re in a job or because they’re offering you a job.

It’s knowing, okay, this is part of being in a marketplace. You need certain skillsets, you need something that I can give. So how we can get to a mutual agreement of this product, and what the outcome should look like coming out of that conversation?

Alisa Manjarrez: Lucy talks about my generation, the millennials, how we all feel entitled, but I think it’s an important point to bring up that being entitled isn’t about being arrogant. She talks about how, if you don’t speak up, especially multicultural women, you’ll most likely get seen as a secretary. So there is that aspect of a need to show up more than feels comfortable, but there’s another side to that where showing up and being visible doesn’t always mean speaking up.

 Lucy Park: They do feel entitled to be there. They’re not just grateful to be there. And I think that makes all the difference. I mean, I still, even now, a lot of my motivation is gratitude to be where I am. And I think that they feel much more like, well, I worked hard and I got here. So of course I’m entitled to be here. And it’s a very different feel when you think that way about yourself. And I wish all women thought that way about themselves.

Rosa Santos: Yeah, absolutely. I think probably one of the better ways of showing up sometimes is actually exercising your listening, your powerful listening. Sometimes and especially, and I’m sure a lot of folks who are listening to this right now can pinpoint a time where they were sitting around a table and there were a bunch of people competing about speaking first and speaking louder. And I’m sure a lot of people can relate to the fact that what they were saying actually had nothing to do with the issue at hand. 

In those occasions, the best thing one can do is actually wait, listen, and then towards the end, once everybody’s done with like showing off, is when you are going to intervene, you are going to summarize and then you’re going to make your point. And your point is going to be the valid point. Not theirs. And it might be a short, short sentence, but with the greatest insight.

So if I tell you if the one thing that you want to do and start practicing to show up is choose the insight that you want to share at that table. And a critical insight that is going to unlock whatever next conversation or whenever next action or path coming out of that conversation to achieve a project or whatever it was being discussed. There is when you’re going to be noticed.

Alisa Manjarrez: Yeah, I would say, choose your mic drop moment.

Rosa Santos: Yes, absolutely.

Lucy Park: To advance one needs to become more visible, whether it’s senior management, whether it’s your bigger partners, whether it’s senior partners, whoever it is, you just need to be more visible.

And you also have to speak up when there’s an opportunity to speak up. So by that I don’t mean, you know, make waves, I mean, speak up in a meeting. Don’t just sit quietly. If you have something to say, say it and make yourself heard. Because I spent, personally, a lot of meeting times just sitting there and taking notes, even when I had something to contribute. Now sometimes it’s because you think, well, it’s not my role to speak. I’m here just to take notes, and that’s fine, but to the extent that there is opportunity, I think it’s very important to speak up.

Alisa Manjarrez: It reminds me of the bachelor, honestly, when all these women are pining after the guy and at the end of the night he chooses someone and he says, you know what? I really loved that you were confident enough to just show up and be yourself. It reminds me of that idea of like, how do you get what you want? You know? And everyone has a strategy. And what we’re saying is, owning your career, owning your voice, owning your visibility, doesn’t necessarily mean being the loudest or making the most noise.

All right, Rosa, I want to switch gears, because I’m curious to know in your career past, have you ever gotten asked to plan a party or serve everyone simply because you’re the woman in the room?

Rosa Santos: Alisa, who hasn’t been asked that?

Alisa Manjarrez: I know. 

[cue music] 

Rosa Santos: The one time that I remember clearly was in fact, when I came to the US for the first time. I was in my early thirties. There was a new job. I was super excited. I wanted to impress and I was ready, right, I was ready to eat the world and show my worth and all of that, right? And I happened to work for a company that was very male dominated, that was the reality. So every Monday morning, we would meet before the market would open, and everyone around that room were men. 

I remember very, very clearly the first Monday morning I show up. I think it was probably my first Monday after I actually got this job and I got there and one of my colleagues said, Hey, Rosa, do you mind going and getting coffee to Starbucks, and, mind you, I didn’t even know what Starbucks was because coming where I was coming from, we didn’t have Starbucks, so, It thought okay, I’ll go get Starbucks.

And I got everybody’s orders and went down, had to get in a car, come back and give everybody their coffee. We started the meeting and I realized like, Oh, they’ll pay me later. but, Hey, I didn’t know, you know. They probably thought, you know, I knew that there was something like a company card or something like, Okay, they’ll pay me later. 

This happened every single Monday for the first month that I was there. It wasn’t an ask, it was then assumed that I was going to bring the coffee. And I thought I was like, okay, I’ll bring them the coffee, and, you know, I got like, Oh, Starbucks is great. And I would show up with the coffees, right? I thought I was doing, until I realized first, that was a role clearly assigned to me and nobody else would go and get coffee. And second, by then, it was a few hundreds of dollars that I accumulated that nobody were paying to me.

Alisa Manjarrez: And you were spending your own money?

Rosa Santos: I was spending my own money. So I said, this needs absolutely to stop. This is ridiculous. So I went in, they asked me to come and do it. I went to Starbuck, came back, gave them the coffee. And I told them that it was 600 some dollars for the order and they all looked at me and I said like here and they started to laugh and I said, I am not kidding.

Alisa Manjarrez: Oh, my gosh.

Rosa Santos: This is how much money you owe me, and this is the last time I will bring you… And it’s funny, because they started to even doubt like, Oh, these coffees aren’t that much. And I say, actually, no, I’m not, charging you for the coffee. I’m charging you for the time that it’s taken me to go get this coffee and bring it to you. So I’m charging you for my working time. The coffee is on me.

[music stops]

Alisa Manjarrez: Talk about a mic drop moment. Oh my gosh. 

Rosa Santos: Oh, it was funny. It was, they never ever asked me for coffee again. I mean, sometimes… and it was kind of self-inflicted, right? Because I wanted to make sure that I was a good impression and all of that. But then I got myself into a loop that I knew I wasn’t going to get out of it. So I think the moral of the story is what roles are you assuming? Are you okay with those roles? It was killing me that that’s how they saw me. So I had to actually do something that dramatic, because I knew that was the way that I was going to get their attention, and that’s how radical I need it to be with them.

Alisa Manjarrez: I need to embrace your radicalism.

Rosa Santos: Hey, I’m not that successful sometimes, so it sounds like.

I’ve learned from a lot of mistakes. Let me tell you that.

Alisa Manjarrez: We’ll just capture all your best moments here on the podcast.

Rosa Santos: We can have one whole hour of like the bad ones as well, if you want.

Alisa Manjarrez: Okay. So we would be remiss if we didn’t talk about another piece of advice that Lucy gives us and she talks about having a sponsor in your life, and, you know, last episode, we talked about mentorship. What is a sponsor, Rosa?

Rosa Santos: It’s very simple, I think a sponsor is someone who has your back. I think a sponsor is someone who can vouch for you. I think a sponsor is someone who is going to speak highly of you. I think a sponsor is someone who’s going to bring up your name when an opportunity arises, and is going to be able to share about why you should be there. I think a sponsor is, in fact, someone who’s willing to put his or her own credibility at risk for you. That is a sponsor.

Lucy Park: You have to start early. You can’t try and figure out who that sponsor is the year that you’re up for partner, because it’s too late at that point. If they haven’t pinpointed you and made you their protégé then it’s too late, because sponsors, unlike mentors, have to want to be your sponsor.

And so if they’re not willing to invest time and effort, then it’s no good. And so I would say start early, figure out who the power players are in your department, at your firm, at your place of business, figure out who you’ll be working with and then figure out who you would be a good fit with, because obviously they have to agree, and they don’t necessarily need to know they’re your sponsor, but you have to have enough contact with them so that, you know, they ask you to events. They take you along on client meetings, they feed work to you, whatever the important aspects are of the job. And so starting early gives you the time to court one and become a protégé before you need that sponsor.  

Alisa Manjarrez: She was lucky to have someone come to her and choose to sponsor her and the business. There are some firms that build this into the system, but if you’re in a career where you could be on the path to partnership or even leadership, really, it is so crucial to have that person really strategically pulling you up, where in my mind, it’s the people that can take you to places that you can’t go yourself. 

Rosa, I was telling you earlier about a friend who was working at a company where they’re going through a merger and her sponsor just wasn’t available for her. And she was talking about how, you know, sometimes sponsors are going through things or they are not able to support you, but don’t take it personally, and what did you tell me? 

Rosa Santos: She doesn’t have a sponsor. Especially when you go through something like a merger. Your job is being made redundant. So maybe your sponsor cannot give you a job. That’s perfectly fine. But I think if he or she is truly a sponsor, probably what you need at that moment is a little bit further clarity from what’s going on if you or she’s in a situation to provide it, you know, you know who’s your sponsor. And if none of the criteria that I just described applies than maybe they are not your sponsor. They are something else. They’re a colleague, which is okay too, right? But then they’re not your sponsor.

Alisa Manjarrez: And if that’s the case, there’s nothing that says you can’t go find a sponsor at another company or in another department, or, you know, someone who is there to really show you the ropes and get you to where you need to go.

Rosa Santos: And I like that you bring this up, because I think everyone needs a sponsor both inside and outside. One of the things that Lucy talks about that I think it’s ever so important, and for some of us we feel hesitant about is talking to recruiters, even if you’re happy with where you are. I think by talking to recruiters, you’re going to feel that either you’re much happier because you’ve spoken to them and you know, what’s out there. Because then if it gets to a point where you need to find a new job or your career strategy says that you need to move and find another company or another job, who better to have as a sponsor, as a recruiter?

Alisa Manjarrez: That’s how I found out I was underpaid at another company. The recruiter said, look, I’m looking at your experience, I’m looking at the jobs out there, your minimum should be $30,000 more than what you’re making. And I can find you that job, but you should also know that’s what you’re worth.

Rosa Santos: So it is important. It is important, again, that we broadened. That we know how to do business development, right? That we know our worth. And that we create a strategy with specific actions that are going to take hold and place and take you to where you want to go.

[cue outro theme music]

Alisa Manjarrez: I love that idea that your career is not your job. Your career is your business. What other questions do you think we should be asking ourselves as we’re developing that career strategy?

Rosa Santos: First and foremost, I would just ask, What do you want? What is it that you are after? Do people know that you are there? And if they don’t, what do you need to do to be more visible for everybody? Map your relationships. Create a relationship map within your organization and externally, and then just do a little bit of analysis in terms of how close I am  to maybe the job that I want, and then what is your plan? Is bringing drinks to the table going to help you achieve your goal?

It might. Sometimes you have to do it to get yourself through the door. But be intentional. It’s about being strategic and it’s about where you’re heading and how you’re going to get there.

Alisa Manjarrez: You have the power to own your career. You have the power to create the life that you desire, and you have the power to create the career that you desire.

Lucy Park: You do have to actually make things happen. There is a difference in managing your career and just reacting. No one has control over your career but you. And if you’re not looking out for your career, who is?

Alisa Manjarrez: For more inspiring stories, please subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you have a guest you’d love to hear on the show, send us a DM on Instagram at @colorforwardpod.

I’m Alisa Manjarrez, producer of Color Forward. Thanks for joining us and, please, leave us a review.

[outro theme ends]