29. Friendship: Should You Stay or Should You Go? (feat. Dr. Marisa G. Franco)

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Episode Transcript

[cue musical intro]

Alisa Manjarrez: Have you ever had a friend break up with you?

Merary Simeon: That’s a great question. I don’t think I ever had. Have you?

Alisa Manjarrez: I have. It was like bachelor style, you know, at the end of the bachelor, when they’re ready to propose and you don’t know if the person’s going to choose you or the other one for the rest of your lives? That is like exactly how I felt, because I had this friend, things were kind of rocky, I thought it was just a weird season for us. 

We’d been friends for 20 years since high school. And one day over ice cream… I was like, we should hang out. So we went for ice cream. She said, Alisa, I love you, but we can’t be friends anymore. And I was like, What? Like completely, completely thrown off.

And I said, am I toxic? Am I dysfunctional? Did I do something thing? And we talked for a little while and I was asking her all these questions. And she said, I don’t know. And she recalled the story where she like went out of her way for me several times.

And then there was another time where she had, let me down, and I told her about it, and she said, she felt so guilty for letting me down that she didn’t like that feeling and she felt like we shouldn’t be friends.

Merary Simeon: I thought she, I thought she was dating your man or something like that, because to break up with you that way.

Alisa Manjarrez: It was heartbreaking. I remember I came home and I actually, I think I drove straight to my parents’ house, because I was like, I don’t know what to do. And I just started bawling like you would in a breakup, it was just out of nowhere. It was devastating. And now I can talk about it fine.

I can laugh about it, but in the moment it was like just a shock.

Merary Simeon: I guess I could see if my best friend was too tell me she didn’t want to talk to me anymore. Well, maybe that’s why they don’t tell me. Because I would go to their house and be like, why wouldn’t you talk to me? I want answers. We can’t break up. It’s unacceptable. Friends don’t breakup. But I do believe that people grow out of friendships. 

[cue music]

Alisa Manjarrez: Growing up together, you plan out your lives, and then she had these big milestones and I wasn’t a part of it. And I remember when she got married, it kind of hurt again, because it reminded me that like, I’m not part of her life. 

Last week we talked to Dr. Marisa Franco, and there were so many great things that she taught us about friendship, that we wanted to continue the conversation and talk about one, the importance of friendship, because as adults it’s really important to have friends. They make your life better, and I think one of the reasons why not having friends is so painful is because when you do have friends, it helps you. It helps you with your mental health. It helps you with your wellbeing. It’s someone you can connect to. It’s someone who knows you and you know them, but it’s not always amazing or wonderful. It’s not always rainbows and butterflies.

[music stops]

Rosa Santos: So what I wanted to ask you guys is, do you actually have like very specific core non-negotiables that for you actually become your framework to let friends go?

Alisa Manjarrez: Oh, to let friends go?

Rosa Santos: Yeah. Because I actually, I have to say, I think I do. I think there are some very basics and fundamentals for me that I cannot, and I know it sounds… maybe it sounds even counter to what we always say, but for instance, I had a really good friend in my neighborhood. She and I would do a lot of things for the kids when the kids were grown, going up.

You know, like big things, big parties, we were all in each other’s houses all the time. Spent a lot of time together and then, she at one… One fine day, she said some very racist comments in my living room that I just could not believe that it was coming out of her mouth and it really hurt me.

You hurt me. And I was so preoccupied that my son was next door and I did not want him to hear what she was saying. And I remember I hold her by her shoulders and I kept saying, are you listening to yourself? And she was so convinced that what she was saying was okay, I won’t say it here, but it was, it was okay for her to say that. 

And she could not understand that I wasn’t on the same page. At that moment, I asked her to leave my house, and I said, you’re no longer welcome in my house as long as you continue to have those views about people who do not look like you, or haven’t had the opportunities that you’ve had.

And in the meantime, I’ll say hello and good morning to you. But this is it. And that was six years ago. And that was that. And it was mind blowing. I mean, I know it’s an extreme, but I just felt that I just could not have… could no longer have a relationship with this friend / neighbor.

Alisa Manjarrez: Was that the last straw or were there other things that led up to it? 

Rosa Santos: It’s interesting, because I knew our political views were very different, but I was okay with that, I think, and Merary’s great at that. And I do look for others’ perspectives. It’s not just about mine, right? I actually seek for those perspectives. So I knew that was there, but that didn’t bother me in this slightest.

We did a lot of volunteering work together. As I said, we, we used to do a lot for the community and for our neighborhood, we used to do a lot of, again, involvement in the school parties, et cetera, together, bring the neighborhood together, et cetera. Maybe it was at a point where she felt comfortable saying those things that sometimes like you peel back and it’s hard for you to understand that folks have this very, I don’t know, conviction about, in this case, about how races are different and the result of who you are or how you grow or end up being is as a result of what color your skin has. That was like, for me, it’s like, I can’t. That’s too much for me. I let her go, and I let her go like, I said, I physically put her out of my house. And I think it’s probably one of the most extreme things is I’ve ever done with friendships.

Merary Simeon: I agree. For me, it’s been respect. To me, that is something that is a core. If I can’t trust you to respect me or my beliefs, that doesn’t mean you have to agree, but respect me, then I don’t see why we should even be friends. Now I have walked out of people’s houses, I guess, because I felt that where the conversation was going, it was going to get out of hand, but I also have ended up talking to them about it later and trying to understand what happened, what went wrong and how can we make it better? Only because these relationships that I had, they’ve been for a long time. Like I have long time friends. I only have a few new friends, I would say. And that is because it’s gotta be somebody that if I let you in my life, I trust you.

And then two, you gotta be respectful.

Alisa Manjarrez: Once you’re in, you’re in.

Merary Simeon: Yeah. Once you’re in, you’re in. I guess I don’t let you out.

Alisa Manjarrez: I feel so privileged.

Merary Simeon: It’s kind of creepy, but it’s… but it is, once you’re in, you’re in. Like, I want to, I want to work things out. I want to understand. I guess to your point, Alisa, and to your story earlier, you wanted to understand what happened.

Like, what did I do wrong? Because I take it so seriously. Like friendships are so serious, but I can tell you this, if somebody is disrespectful or does something to violate my trust, I don’t know that I will go straight up and break up with them. I just think like, I can’t even bother.

Alisa Manjarrez: I feel like you should be able to work things out if the friendship is worth it. And one of the things that I could say I suffered from, I didn’t know the term until Dr. Marisa taught us it, it’s called ambiguous loss.  

Dr. Marisa Franco: When it’s very hard for us to grieve something because we don’t have closure from it, and so it’s like, it’s like when you get ghosted, like all of the sudden, now you’re obsessed with the person because like your brain doesn’t know how to process it because you don’t have any sort of… it’s not coherent to you.

You don’t understand what’s going on. And that makes it really hard to move on. So if you’re close with someone at work, then I would suggest giving them that reason why you want to step back and making it as professional as possible. You know, like, You know, I’ve enjoyed the time spent together, but I’m just realizing we’re not as compatible as I might have initially thought. But I just hope that we can still work really well together. And I’m not holding anything against you. Something as easy as that.

Alisa Manjarrez: For me, I spent probably an hour talking to her, trying to find out why. If she would have said, like, you’re the worst person I’ve ever met. I would have been okay with it because I would have gotten closure. But one of the things that Dr. Marisa suggests, and anytime you’re having a friendship issue, is that you have an open conversation. So if you feel like someone is taking too much or doing something that bothers you, it’s really important to be open and talk about the issue at hand, which is easier said than done.

Dr. Marisa Franco: Your desire is not only to be heard in that conversation, but it’s also to hear the other person. Like, what do you think? What are your needs? And this is really based off of this theory called reciprocity theory, which is something that, you know, is really important to me as I think about friendship. Reciprocity theory is the idea that, kindness begets kindness, meanness begets meanness, whatever emotion we put out, we get back. And so if I’m approaching a conversation with my friend, like I am about to tell you about yourself, yet they’re about to tell me about myself too.

I want to hear and understand your views here. And I would also like to share my own. Then you’re a lot more likely to get a different response from your friend. And so it’s being able to be upfront about and make known things that typically fall to the wayside and then people don’t know what our expectations are and then they might hurt us and they may rupture them and they don’t even know.

Merary Simeon: I don’t have any confrontation problems. Like I had friends that I would just call them out right away on it, but I also know that I lose a little bit of, I don’t know, a friendship level.

Alisa Manjarrez: You drop down a notch.

Merary Simeon: I drop down to notch, right?

Alisa Manjarrez: They’re like, Ugh, Merary, I’m not going to call her.

Merary Simeon: Like I don’t put my… Yeah, like let’s say, Alisa, you and I talked and you’re going to do me a favor, whatever it may be, and you let me down once, I’d be like, Alisa, what happened? But then I don’t put myself in the position for you to do that to me again.

Alisa Manjarrez: What do you mean? Like how? Do you step back then?

Merary Simeon: I step back then.

Alisa Manjarrez: Oh, okay.

Merary Simeon: I step back, because it hurt me. If you asked me for something, if I can’t deliver, I’m going to go… or whatever it is, right, it’s a friendship. Like if we’re supposed to go together, do something and it can’t happen, I understand, if there’s a real good reason, right? But if there isn’t. Then what I’ve seen myself do is I step back and I won’t ask you again for a favor. I won’t ask you none of that stuff. Will we talk and be courteous to each other? Absolutely. But I have a hard time putting myself in a position where I’ll get my feelings hurt. It’s a wall. I put a wall to protect myself, right?

Alisa Manjarrez: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think what you’re referring to is reciprocity theory. So if someone’s not giving to you, you don’t want to give to them. And sometimes we come into relationships where the person’s a taker and you start noticing, and you’re like, okay, I’m giving and giving and giving, and there’s nothing coming back.

Merary Simeon: No, that’s true too. And I enjoy giving. It’s like something I actually enjoy to do. So it’s not like if you asked me for something, I wouldn’t do it. I just wouldn’t ask you, you know what I mean, either, because I’m like, you’re not hurting my feelings again.

Alisa Manjarrez: But have you ever tried? Because Dr. Marisa says that if someone’s a taker, don’t judge them right away and decide that they’re never going to be able to give, but try asking them to give back, and then decide if it’s unhealthy. So you’re like… do you give chances? I guess that’s what I’m wondering.

Merary Simeon: I do. And my husband’s always like, man, you give too many chances, and I do, but I guess… Let me explain the chances that I give. So the chances are, I will let you, back into my life, but I won’t get into yours. Does that make sense?

Alisa Manjarrez: I heard someone describe our life like circles. So you have… It’s like think of a target and you have different like rings of the circle. And that’s where you have people in your inner circle and then you have people way on the outside, like your acquaintances. And you can just move people from one ring to the next ring of the circle depending on how your relationship goes.

Merary Simeon: You just solved the biggest puzzle of my life. Definitely. I moved them to a different ring. They’re still my friends. I just moved them to a different ring. And I love that, I love that analogy, because there are friends that, let’s say you would take with you places, I dunno, I’m using this… a camping trip, and there are other friends you would take to a spa. Does that make sense?

Alisa Manjarrez: No. It doesn’t. I don’t know what you mean. 

Merary Simeon: I have all different kinds of friends.

Alisa Manjarrez: Okay. Like camping, like something where you’re like, you’re just together, and spa is like intimate conversations, is that what you mean? 

Merary Simeon: I look at camping as like the raw me.

Alisa Manjarrez: Oh, okay.

Merary Simeon: Right? Like let you into my dirty house, my dirty laundry, my, you know, whatever. Because you see all of somebody when you’re camping versus in a spa, everything is like, oh, it’s so… you know… 

Alisa Manjarrez: Oh, you have champagne, you have your cute robe… 

Merary Simeon: Uh-huh. 

Alisa Manjarrez: Got it. 

Merary Simeon: That’s kind of how I look at. It’s very different.

Rosa Santos: So I think doing a relationship mapping and utilizing that ring theory and then looking and seeing which of my friendships I’ve let go, but I would like to bring into closer to the ring, right? Closer to the center where I am. It’s a really good exercise. 

You just put it in a piece of paper. You put yourself in the center. And then you plot everybody depending on how close they are to you and what makes them closer to you versus not. And then you start mapping out that relationship, and then you start formulating, then, what do I need to do to strengthen it? Or maybe to let it go? And it could be very fulfilling and very action oriented, especially when you may be just struggling with a few of those relationships or friendships.

Merary Simeon: Wow. I mean, that’s… that takes work. I like it though. Listen, I’m just going to say this. If I start doing this relationship mapping and I start asking people to be my best friends and they reject me…

Alisa Manjarrez: Well, come cry to us. We’ll be there for you.

Rosa Santos: But it’s not about becoming you’re best friend, right?

It’s more about… I think there’s like different faces, right? You do this relationship mapping, and it’s just a matter of like looking at it and seeing you know, it’s also, what are you gaining from them? Are they satisfying you and where are you giving back to those friends as well?

And then what does that map tell you? It tells a lot about how you’re conducting yourself. It tells you a lot what it is that you value and who you value. And it probably will tell you a lot the other way. It might open up an incredible conversation if you’re struggling with a relationship and you’re sharing that map and you’re sharing why. You know, you have that friend closer or further apart from you and what would be that needs to be done in order to maybe resolve it to a common understanding of placement. If we can call it that way.

[cue music]

I am very pragmatic about time. And I compartmentalize really well. So in my mind, there’s only certain time in the day, in the week, in the month, in the year to be able to do everything that I have to do.

And that includes spending time with my friends and spending quality time with my friends. So when I look at my friends, it’s a little bit of looking at a bookshelf, and I’m thinking are all those books that I have on that shelf the books that bring me joy? Because there’s only certain space on that shelf, and it’s prime real estate.

So it’s the same thing for me with friendships. When I look at my friendships, I look, are those all friendships on the shelf the right ones? Because there’s only certain time that I can allocate to all of that. And I need to make sure that those friendships are the ones that bring me that joy, that energize me.

Those are the friends that I actually want to spend time with. Those are the friends that I want actively to lift up. And those are the friends that are on my shelf. Now, as we know, and as we’ve discussed, and will discuss, some of those friendships sometimes, you know, they’re not fulfilling you or they’re giving you, you know, they’re taking the power away from you.

So at that moment is when I look at my shelf and I go, okay, which one is the one that needs to come out in order for me to be able to put another one in? I’m being kind of, I mean, I don’t do this every day, but kind of conscious around it, right? In terms of like, okay, if I’m going to dedicate, if I just met somebody and I’m going to dedicate a lot of time to this new friendship, which one I am not going to? Or which one is the one that I may need to just maybe take off the shelf and put it in a drawer for a little while? So I can mature the others or bring some other ones in?

[music stops]

Merary Simeon: Rosa is hard. Rosa is like, You’re getting off the shelf and that’s it, you’re done. 

Alisa Manjarrez: Yeah, you’re either on or you’re off.

Merary Simeon: Me and you are like, I’m just going to move you over one ring. Rosa’s like, You’re done, baby.

Alisa Manjarrez: She’s like, you’re out of my house.

Merary Simeon: Get out of my house, never to be seen again.

Rosa Santos: Yeah, but, I mean, you guys, if you think about it, I know it’s harsh, but the day has only certain number of hours. So you cannot provide the same level of, I dunno, love, I guess, to all of the books on your shelf, right? You cannot read them all. You just need to manage that. That’s why, in my head, is, you know, which are my favorites?

Alisa Manjarrez: Oh, we’re getting deeper on your shelf theory. I didn’t know there were favorites. I was excited to be on the shelf.

Rosa Santos: No, I mean, it’s like, which books you reread all the time, Alisa, come on. Come on. Help me.  

Alisa Manjarrez: You were talking about outgrowing friends. How do you know it’s time to go separate ways? 

Merary Simeon: I think it’s when we lose interest on the same things, is what I would say. For example, I noticed that when I moved to Texas, now that was a move, obviously, so you are moving from your friends… And actually, let me give you an example. I was the last one to get married among my friends and the last one to have small kids.

And one of the things that I noticed is that I do a lot of different things now, because my kids are small, that I don’t do with my friends who have kids who are in high school or are ready to go into college. That doesn’t mean that we have walked away from each other’s lives. My best friend’s son is a senior in high school, but we don’t do a lot of the same things together.

So I’ve gained other friends because of, you know, the soccer games on the weekends and things like that that happened. But the other thing that I would say is, even when I used to run the marathons, I had friends that I would run with every weekend because we all have to be crazy to get up and run, you know, ten miles on a Saturday. 

But they were… we became really good friends. We shared a lot of things together. A lot of to your point, a lot of those personal things that you don’t talk about with everybody and you’re vulnerable and it makes you feel good after the run, after the walk, whatever it is. And just having those conversations where I don’t do that anymore. And we are not together, right? We don’t do those things. What saddens me many times is like, wow, I wish we had more in common, because, something Rosa said earlier is like, I miss the conversations that we may have had. However, their kids are hanging out with other kids. And my kids are still little. So there are different activities that I do.

But do I miss those conversations? Yeah. Because I think what we had was more than just running partners, but unfortunately it didn’t turn out that way.

Alisa Manjarrez: One of the things that Dr. Marisa says is, if you’re giving people a chance you want to look at the signs of, is this healthy or unhealthy?  

Dr. Marisa Franco: So is this person rooting for my success or are they trying to tear me down, right? Are they just taking from me? Does it seem like they have my best interests at heart, right? Do they show that they like and value me?

Like those are a lot of questions that you could ask yourself to assess the health of your friendship. And if they are a taker and it doesn’t seem like they like love and value you, they don’t show love to you, they’re not there when you need them, they’re not rooting for your success, they seem jealous, like then that might not be a healthy relationship for you necessarily. 

Alisa Manjarrez: We should assume that maybe someone just had a bad day or they got busy. They didn’t text you back. It’s not that big of a deal. They weren’t being intentionally malicious towards you. But I wonder if we do that too much, if we assume good intent too many times. Like, do we let people hurt us over and over again and give them too much space or do we clam up and not let anybody in because of all the times we’ve been hurt?

Merary Simeon: Well, for me, I just move them in and out of those rings, right?

Alisa Manjarrez: Whether you like it or not.

Merary Simeon: I probably don’t tell… Actually, I know, I don’t tell them, because I don’t want to have that conversation, and maybe that’s the piece that’s missing. I don’t want to… Actually, let me take that back. I do have the conversation.

I tell you why I’m feeling the way I’m feeling. I just don’t tell them, I moved you to the outer ring.

Alisa Manjarrez: Have you ever had a conversation where you want to know what might bother the other person about you in a friendship?

Merary Simeon: That’s a good one. I don’t know that I’ve ever asked for that feedback.

Alisa Manjarrez: Because that’s another piece of reciprocity theory, where she’s like see where the other person is coming from, but then you also put yourself aside and hear what might be bothering them about you.

Which no one wants to hear.

Dr. Marisa Franco: And it’s not always easy. Honestly, I’ve been trying to do it more in my life. Sometimes it’s been so good, like I made my friend cry, because she was like, I’ve never experienced conflict like this that feels so close and connecting.

But honestly, with other friends, it’s been kind of difficult. And it’s been hard and, you know, sometimes other people don’t necessarily have the skills to engage in that conversation that you might want to. But for me, it’s also like, this is something that I want in my relationships now. And so it’s almost like if you are able to meet me there, that’s almost like a sign that I feel like this relationship can be built and become the friendship that I really want. 

Merary Simeon: One of the things that I do, and any of my longtime friends know this because they’ve probably been through the process with me is, I definitely say what it is that I’m feeling and what is wrong. I take that accountability. If it is like, Hey, I’m sure there was something that I did wrong because you acted A, B, C, or D. I take that accountability and that’s good, but I don’t dwell on it. Like once it’s done, it’s done. And it’s like, let’s just go back to being who we were, if that’s even ever possible, right? Because now you’re in the outer ring, so we got to work back in.

Alisa Manjarrez: Yeah, and it takes time to come back.

Merary Simeon: It’s complicated.

Alisa Manjarrez: It is, it is. 

So, you do have a choice. We all have a choice. If our relationships are good or bad, we have our choice on how close in the ring we put them, or in Rosa’s terms, do we keep them on the shelf or do we take them off the shelf of our close friends?

And the first one is, how satisfied are we? I think that’s what you’re talking about with your running friends. Like you had a lot in common, but you wanted to go deeper.  

Merary Simeon: We went deeper in our conversations, but when the running stopped, like our relationship stopped. And I thought that it was deeper than that.  It was almost like the interests brought us together. And as the interests change, as we grew up, the friendship changed.  

Alisa Manjarrez: Well, the next factor of staying in a relationship is actually looking at our alternatives. So you have your best friend, if you’re like, you know what, I’m already friends with you, we already have a lot in common. I’m probably not going to find anyone else, that’s a factor in staying friends with the person.

Rosa Santos: Part of what I value in friendships is folks who know me and keep me honest. So those who actually can tell me, You are not walking the talk. So why are you behaving this way? Or those who say, You say that you want to expand your network or support other women, and you’re not doing it, Rosa, as much as you said that you want to do it. Let me help you figure it out.

Or those who tell you, you look terrible. You’re not taking care of yourself, right? Those… 

You’re like, Yes. What was the last time, Alisa, you told me I looked terrible?

Alisa Manjarrez: I don’t think I’ve ever told you. I have told you when you look amazing.

Rosa Santos: But it’s true. You… I value that quite a bit. I value friends who care for me to tell me that I am not taking care of myself, for instance. That is something that I value quite a bit in friendships. I also, and I think I’ve shared this with you many times before, I also like friends who lie to me. We are there to lift each other up and sometimes you just have to lie. Yes, I do like it when people are telling me you look awful, but there are some times that I may look awful and I need Alisa still to tell me, Rosa, you look great. 

Alisa Manjarrez: I’ve never lied. I have rose colored glasses for you, Rosa.

Rosa Santos: But it’s true. Sometimes you need both, I guess it’s the balance for me, right, that friends should really be there because they care for you. So they’ll be able to choose one way or the other to make sure that, you know, that they’re there, that they are there when you need them.

That they’re there in the good and the bad, and they know how to manage you in those moments. Those are like really, really good and true friendships and relationships. 

Alisa Manjarrez: That’s another factor in seeing a relationship. How much time have you invested already?

Dr. Marisa Franco: So as human beings, if we’ve invested a lot of time into something, we’re more likely to want to continue the relationship, which is like, why it’s a bad idea if you just met someone a month ago on a dating app to like go to Mexico with them, because then you’re going to feel like, I’ve invested so much in them. I should stay with them. And so the same thing is true for like friendships that we might have grown, just because we’ve invested a lot, we assume that, you know, we should continue this relationship when that’s not necessarily true. And I think we need to like normalize out growing relationships with people. 

When we don’t feel like ourselves around someone. When we feel drained after interacting with someone. When we don’t feel like we have our similar values. When they don’t have our best interests at heart. I think those are all subsides.  

Alisa Manjarrez: What’s important for people to understand is number one, friendships are worth it, and they’re important. They’re good for your health. They are good for a long lasting life, but in order to keep your friendships, where you want them, you have to work on them. And you have to have open conversations, and you have to develop trust and you have to give, and you have to recognize when people are not giving. 

Merary Simeon: Whether it’s relationship mapping, whether it’s friends on the shelves or not, is that it takes work from both ends.

[cue outro music]

And it just depends how much work do you want to put into the relationship? And, key word, how much work? Because if it is taking away from your joy, if it is difficult to work on it, then you should reconsider, but it does take some type of work. It can’t just be a one way street.

Alisa Manjarrez: I would like to invite you to look at your friendships, map it out. Whether you physically make circles on a piece of paper and map out all your friends, or just take some time to think about it. I want to give you permission from all of us here at Color Forward to let go of the friendships that are not serving you and let go of the friendships that are not bringing you joy and let go of the people who are not valuing you and rooting for your success.

The friends that are going to root for your success, the friends that are going to be there for you when you’re camping, when you’re at your worst, those are the friends to keep, spend your time cherishing and developing those friendships and working on them, and you will be so much happier and more fulfilled. If you’re not sure, and you’re wondering if it’s time to let someone go, it’s time to let them go.

[musical break]

Alisa Manjarrez: For more inspiring stories, please subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you have a guest you’d love to hear on the show, send us a DM on Instagram at @colorforwardpod.

I’m Alisa Manjarrez, producer of Color Forward. Thanks for joining us and, please, leave us a review.

[outro theme ends]